Ep 7: From Cancer Survivor to Business Strategist: Vandana Puranik

Tim Jordan:

There are a lot of people in this world with great information, great wisdom, great experience, but there'snot that many people that have lectured at Oxford and Stanford and Harvard, who have spoken on TEDx,who have worked for Fortune 100 companies and also started entrepreneurial startups by themselves. Ourguest today is one of those people, but there's an interesting twist. As of the time that we're recording,only about two or three weeks ago did our guest leave a near-death experience that she'd been involvedwith for many weeks.

She's a recent cancer survivor, had some complications that we'll talk about in this episode, but thatjourney and that near-death experience gave her an opportunity, consciously or subconsciously, toorganize all of these pieces of wisdom, pearls of knowledge, and experience that she's had in thecorporate and entrepreneurial world where she can now lay them out in a strategic and tactical way tohelp us with one of the biggest problems that entrepreneurs, founders, and business leaders have. We'lltell you what that problem is as soon as we get into this episode. It's going to be a great one. You're goingto want to listen to the end. Great story, great advice, great strategic and tactical information. Here we go.

Hey, everybody, and welcome to another episode of The Growth Gear podcast. I'm your host, Tim Jordan,and today, we have a lot to discuss that is applicable to everybody. I don't care if you're a brand newentrepreneur, if you're an executive or founder of a Fortune 100 company or if you're just trying to dobetter at life. The topic that we're covering today encompasses all of those things, and I think it's highlyimportant. So I'm going to go ahead and welcome our guest. I've actually known her for years and been alittle bit disconnected recently, and there's really a good reason for that, especially in the last year. We'llget into that just a second, but welcome, Vandana, to the show.

Vandana Puranik:

Thank you, Tim. So good to be here. So exciting.

Tim Jordan:

Yeah, and your last name is Puranik, right?

Vandana Puranik:

Well, I say Puranik.

Tim Jordan:

Puranik. Dang it. I got that wrong. Right before we started recording I was getting it right, VandanaPuranik. So in the years that I've known Vandana, I've intentionally mispronounced her name just to pickon her, and now getting it right is actually hard because my brain is screwed up, but where are you basedat?

Vandana Puranik:

I'm based out of Toronto. I'm from South Florida, but I've lived in Toronto for the last number of years.

Tim Jordan:

Got it. So you have an interesting history. You've been involved in business for over 25 plus years. Whatare some of the companies that you've worked with?

Vandana Puranik:

So I started my corporate career off with Procter & Gamble, loved being there, and based on the changesthey were going through, it was nice to have left them as well. Worked at Kellogg's, tremendousconsumer-level experience. I was a director of marketing at RBC, and then after having three kids andrealizing that I'm not going to go back to work for something that I'm not really excited about, I'm goingto try to do my own thing. So as soon as an ex-boss of mine heard that I was going to go into consultingor freelancing, she called me up right away, and my business has been 100% referral, and I've built everybrand and business I've worked on. So pretty high success rate, and I'm glad I had all those consultingexperiences to do that with. So I've worked in a lot of industries.

Tim Jordan:

So you've worked with giant CPG companies, you worked with small entrepreneurial upstarts, mostly inthe marketing and strategy consulting world. It's given you a lot of experience, and you've probably seen alot of things that have gone well in business, a lot of things that haven't gone well, right?

Vandana Puranik:

Yeah, and I've been involved in quite a bit of innovation work as well, which is it's interesting because noteverybody gets an opportunity to be involved in that, but just the way my path led, that's something that Ichose because there's a different way of thinking when you're innovating, and there's different tools youcan use.

Tim Jordan:

Well, I know you have a lot of wisdom you're going to bring, and just going through kind of the list of thetopics you want to talk about before we started recording, I got excited because we've never had thisconversation. There's a lot here that I know I'm going to glean from and I know that our listeners are too,but let's start off with ... Maybe the word genesis is wrong, maybe the organization of thoughts is wrong,but I know that in just the past nine months or so, you've had a lot happen and a lot of that led you tosome of the organization of these realizations or I don't know exactly how you would word it, but start offand maybe let's spend five minutes talking about what happened starting in July of last year, 2023.

Vandana Puranik:

At the end of July, very unexpectedly in a routine mammogram, they saw some sort of a disturbance, shallwe say, when I was officially diagnosed. So I've been going through this process for the last two, threeweeks, and they officially diagnosed me in August, but even through that, I'd still been traveling andspeaking and all of that, but I was diagnosed with breast cancer. It's interesting because there's differentstages in gates. So I'm in a situation where I would have to have both surgery, well, not all three, surgery,chemo, radiation, and meds for about the next five years. By February, I had done my last treatment, andall of a sudden, I woke up on Valentine's day with a really bad toothache, and I knew that-

Tim Jordan:

Now, when you say February, you're talking about-

Vandana Puranik:

This year.

Tim Jordan:

... two months ago. We're recording this in mid April of '24 for those of you listening. So this infectionand the final round of chemo and this toothache was just two months ago. All right. Keep going.

Vandana Puranik:

Yeah, that's just two months ago, and that was Valentine's day. We said, "Okay. Fever plus chemo, got toget to ER." So went there, waited for about seven hours, even though I was prioritized, was seen by thehead of the department finally. As soon as they saw me and knew what I was asking for, I mean, it waslike grease lightning. Honestly, everything just came sliding in and they had me hooked up to everythingand they tried putting a breathing machine type thing on me, and I freaked out because it was too tightand I was already having trouble breathing, which was really the main issue.

After that, I have no memory after that. There was nothing. I don't know what happened to anything. I'velost weeks of my memory. I went onto the oncology floor and I got worse. So they said, "We're going tohave to go invasive." My husband was completely involved. He was incredible through this whole thing.He was part of the team that eventually when I ended up in ICU, I had probably about a team of 10people, specialists from all different countries, all different disciplines because this was a pretty rare case.

Tim Jordan:

This was less than 60 days ago.

Vandana Puranik:

Yeah.

Tim Jordan:

All right. Keep going.

Vandana Puranik:

Yeah, I know. It's crazy. You'd never know looking at me today, right? It's just things happened really faston all counts, actually, whether it was getting worse or whether it was getting better. So the ICU team,they intubated me, put me on a ventilator, decided that they needed to do things more aggressively. Theytested me for everything, from COVID to tuberculosis to everything. Wasn't really getting better, and soall the specialists were called. In fact, I had this specialist, I had the preeminent specialist who is theleader in ventilators at my hospital.

So he pulled my husband aside, and this was a really interesting fact. There's a lot of times in cases likethis or somewhat similar cases where we don't really know what's going on but we know how to controlit. From that moment on, they knew that they were going to control it, but there were a lot of people whowere skeptical because I ended up with a condition called ARDS, which is Acute Respiratory DistressSyndrome, which doesn't have a very favorable survival rate.

So when I came out of ICU two weeks later, so I was in a coma for two weeks, and I came out of ICU,and I don't think I've ever seen so many medical teams, and there were a number of them so giddy aboutseeing someone alive and happy and talking to them. I was like, "What is happening?" but it was prettycool. So it was a shocking incident because it came out of nowhere. I don't even know if anybody's hadthis situation who's taking this particular chemo drug, which is what they think, they hypothesized led tothis.

Tim Jordan:

During that coma, you said you had some awareness.

Vandana Puranik:

I can honestly see why people would get addicted to this stuff because I was on barbiturates, and let metell you, I had quite a trip. I was flying through galaxies and dimensions and ending up in places that Inever even knew existed with weird concoctions and trying things. Man, everything was just big.Everything was big, but it wasn't involved with tons of people in terms of your relationships.

So even when I ended up somewhere, it was like two people having a conversation or two people havinga drink or two entities thinking about business moving forward. Whatever it was, it was always about twopeople. So the realizations were really pretty phenomenal. It was an awakening for me. So there were afew. The first thing is I tend to be a giver and I give to the point where I'm not respectful of myselfenough.

Tim Jordan:

So these are realizations you had in this wonderland you were in. I've heard people talk about ayahuascatrips and LSD therapy and things like that. So this is something similar. You could be in a different part ofyour consciousness and analyze yourself, analyze life.

Vandana Puranik:

Totally different, yeah, absolutely. I took a look at, "Well, what am I supposed to get from this?" and it'shard because you have to write down everything when you first come out because if you don't, what youremember isn't the same as what you remembered when you were in it. I started writing stuff down andthe things that really started to pop out is, number one, I need to make a clean break in terms of saying."Me first. It was very black and white. When I was my previous state, which was still a great state, but itwasn't great for me all the time, and I think that's the difference. I was going to always get to me, but Inever got to me. Now, it's like I do everything with me first in mind. It's not a sort of a selfish thing. It'sactually a very courageous thing to do. So I want to make that point.

Tim Jordan:

A few guests ago, we had Jason Van Ruler, who's a mental health specialist and high performance coach,and he was saying the same thing, that everybody forgets to take care of themselves first, and you have toimprove yourself before you can fix anything around you.

Vandana Puranik:

Totally agree with that. I'm seeing the results of it now. The whole cadence and order at which I'm doingthings completely change, and we'll talk a little bit more about that, about the near future in a minute, butthat was one thing I learned. The other thing I learned is just as you cannot multitask, you cannot multi-conversation or multi-person. When you're with someone, you need to be 150% with someone. That'show I operate in general, but you'll be amazed where people think, "Okay. I'm at a party. I need to talk toeverybody," you're actually not talking to everybody, you're only talking to one person at a time, and youswitch. Your brain switches really quickly, which is what happens when you multitask. You're actually notdoing multitask, you're switching. Sometimes that can actually be a lot worse. It's better to be focused.

Another thing that I learned, and I have these words that come to my mind, one big word for me iscuriosity and living in that state of curiosity, but the other word that really came to me, and it came to mebecause I'm often asked, "Do you believe everything happens for a reason?" and I don't, but it doesn'tmean I believe that the opposite is true either, but I do believe that whatever happens to you, make sure itis purposeful. Otherwise, it would've happened in vain, which would be so-

Tim Jordan:

You can almost make it have happened for a reason even though it didn't necessarily happen for a reason.

Vandana Puranik:

That's right. You're absolutely right. I think I've done that, actually. So I'm sure we all have, but if ithappens in vain, that would be really tragic. You didn't get anything out of the experience. People talkabout living a purposeful life, and I find that very ambiguous because what does that really mean? "I wantto live a life of purpose," well, what does that mean? "I want to think differently." What does that mean?There has to be some sort of concrete idea around it. Even if it's something that you say you're going todiscover what it means and what actions are you going to take to discover it, that's perfectly fine, but forme, the second word for me that was sort of starting to brew but really came solidified is being deliberate.The reason I chose deliberate is because, well, it's a choice and it's active. You are making the decision todo it. So it puts control within yourself.

Tim Jordan:

So when I spoke to you, I don't know, a week or week and a half ago, and we talked about a topic for thepodcast, the one that you wrote is you'd like to cover, "the one skill that we are never taught but has thepower to change everything". I'm excited about that and hearing, to be honest, although I've known youfor a while, I didn't know your background, I didn't know how much experience you had, how muchcorporate and entrepreneurial experience. You've got a heck of a resume, so hopefully that translates to alot of wisdom and a lot of experience, but then you also just went through this near-death experience thistime where you can organize all of this and think about this in a way that maybe you would not havethought about it before.

I'm excited that you want to share that. So that skill that we're talking about, I'll let you introduce it now,and then you've got a list of principles that go along with that. So kind of for the meat and potatoes of thispodcast episode, let's go through those different principles, but first off, what is that one skill?

Vandana Puranik:

To me, the key is creative problem solving. There are many skills that we're never taught, things likemindfulness, things like coping skills, financial literacy. There's all kinds of stuff that when it's time, weneed to learn it and we do it, but this is the one skill that you use every day, everywhere, whether it's withyour kids. I remember telling my kids, "If you don't want your brother to irritate you, figure out theoutcome that you want and govern yourself accordingly," as an example. So yes, and I actually did talk tomy kids like that even when they were little.

Creative problem solving is really the skill, but it stems out of a lot of neuroplasticity. The brain is reallyincredible at creating new pathways, molding itself, changing itself. There's a lot of studies done onEinstein's brain, and people think left side, right side. It's actually not true. They can weave together, andthat's what happened with him as an example because they kind of sliced his brain up and figured it out,which is kind of gross.

Tim Jordan:

Just small detail.

Vandana Puranik:

Yeah, small details, but what I had done is, essentially, I had gotten bored of consulting and freelancing,and I said I wanted to restructure my business. So a couple of years ago, maybe three years ago now, Irestructured how I'm going to approach it. There was a strategy and then there were different elements ofhow I was going to build it. Then I had an opportunity to be part of an anthology, which became a WallStreet Journal and USA Today bestseller. Then from there, I got speaking opportunities to talk about thistopic, but as part of the anthology, I had developed a new success model. It's self-propagating and it'severlasting.

So there is no reason why each of us cannot be continuously successful, and I think we need that becauseeven in the studies that talk about happiness, there's one area in particular that I find fascinating, which isthis notion of telic versus atelic activities. Have you heard of this?

Tim Jordan:

I have not.

Vandana Puranik:

It's really interesting. They did a study on happiness and they found ... I won't go into the curves and allthat, but what they found is that there's two different types of activities that we all do. Telic are the onesthat have an end, atelic are the ones that don't have an end. So as an example, I'm walking to the store istelic. There's an end in sight. Atelic is I'm going for a walk. Going for a walk allows you the point ofdiscovery and not having any other kind of goals infecting, so to speak, your mind at the time. It'sfreedom. It's very liberating. While telic and atelic are both important and we need them, it's the atelicones that drive happiness. It's just letting go.

So as part of the success cycle that I was developing, I said, "I've got to make sure it's part of that." So theway I've structured the cycle is things start with curiosity, then you go into discovery or experimentation,you go into discovery. I'm really simplifying this. Go into discovery, go into making choices, adapting andrecalibrating. So recalibrating becomes really key because it starts you on the next curiosity cycle, if youwill.

By doing that over and over again, your brain starts to adapt. So you don't have to worry about whetheryou're going to figure it out or not. You will figure it out or you will find what you're looking for. You justhave to go through the process. That to me is incredible because you have control over what you'recurious about. Sometimes we're in tragic situations and we become curious about things like just with mymedical experience. Sometimes we meet great people and we become curious about them. Sometimes wecan't figure stuff out, and that's where really creative problem solving comes in.

There's ways to nudge the neuroplasticity that you have. So people talk a lot about learning a newlanguage or interacting with different people or integrating into society. There's also times where youhave no control, where you have an illness or where you have a drug addiction or you're born withsomething that can't be changed.

I talk a lot about that, and what you realize is that our ability to create a problem solve, to be curious andcreate a problem solve, it's totally magical. There is nothing that you won't be able to solve. The reallygreat thing that this allows you to do is it allows you to create choices for yourselves. People always arein this mode where they're thinking, "This is the way to do it," or, "This is what's been done," or, "This ishow I have to go," and it's just simply not true.

So when you create choices for yourself, you're essentially sculpting your own future. You're making ithappen. So the principles that I talk about a lot are as follows. So the first thing I talk about is solving forthe outcome and not the problem. So what happens is when you solve for the problem, you get fixated onthat problem. It consumes you. You're racking your brains, pulling your hair out, trying to figure out,"What is it that ... I can't get this." That might actually not even be a problem, whatever you're trying tosolve.

So in other words, is it the right problem? How do you know? Is it attached to anything else? Does it evenmatter? Have you invented the problem? We're all capable of doing that, creating problems where theydon't exist. Then the best one yet is trying to solve a problem that you cannot see.

Tim Jordan:

I feel like there's a lot of depth here, but let me back up like half a step. When you say solving for theoutcome, not the problem, I often think that the outcome is the same as the solution, but that's notaccurate because we can't solve for a solution without knowing what the solution is. So the outcome is thestep beyond the solution.

Vandana Puranik:

You might say the outcome is how to make something taste better. The problem would be, "This tastes toosalty."

Tim Jordan:

The solution would be add sugar.

Vandana Puranik:

Right, but if you actually go through the problem solving process, and it's not complicated, but if you gothrough it, you may actually come up with different actions you need to take, questions you need to ask.I'm simplifying it in terms of a recipe, but the people you need to consult with and choices, the differentoptions that you finally get to because quite honestly, if you've got too much salt in something, one of thereally great solutions is adding potatoes. So it has nothing to do with sugar, and you've just avoidedsomething that is probably not the best in terms of your health.

So my point is that what we often think is a problem is not necessarily a problem because it has nothing todo with the outcome that you want to achieve. It's just something that got thrown in your face that youimmediately reacted to. This is really interesting between the corporate and the entrepreneurial world.Corporately, a lot of times or even in school, we're told what to do. You get into the entrepreneurial worldand you're not told what to do. You have to figure everything out.

So we got to be really good at this, at least as entrepreneurs to say, "What is the outcome that I want toachieve?" So that's the big thing for me. When you become fixated on a problem, and that does happenbecause, hey, that's the problem, we got to get to it, solve it. You're subject to something called cognitiverigidity, which basically means that, as it sounds, you can't think as fluidly. When we do that, whathappens is when you have new information coming at you and dropped in your lap, you don't pay enoughattention to it.

Tim Jordan:

What about principle number two?

Vandana Puranik:

Principle number two is curiosity, live in a state of curiosity. It's I love curiosity because it's active, notpassive. It's totally nonjudgmental. It makes you look at things like through the eyes of Einstein or a childdiscovering the world for the first time. One of the things that I've found is it's pretty amazing inrelationships too because when you're, let's say, having an argument or a discussion with somebody whois strongly opposed to what you're saying, if you just approach it in a sense of curious like, "Why'd yousay that? That's really interesting. I never would've thought about it that way," or, "What makes you soangry about this? Because I'm trying to figure this out, but I want to understand your point of view." Allof a sudden the relationship goes from being potentially antagonistic to being, "Hey, okay, this personkind of actually wants to hear what I'm saying. Maybe he or she is respectful of what I'm saying."

So it's a huge deal in relationships as far as I'm concerned, and these are mostly conflicts, but even withkids. Just be curious about what they're saying because kids are brilliant. So I guess to me, two years ago,I made the decision deliberately to live in a state of curiosity, and it has completely changed my life. Thelast two years, I don't get angry at things, I don't get frustrated by things. I just approach it with like,"Hmm, wonder why."

Tim Jordan:

One thing that I try to do is just treat everything as data. So maybe that's similar to this. So instead oftrying to have an emotional response to some sort of input, just use it as data, use it as knowledge that Ican use for whatever it is, whether I need to make a correction to myself, whether I need to analyze asituation from a different perspective. So I guess that ties in with this idea of thinking of everything as aquestion, thinking of everything as maybe not thinking of it as a question, but being able to attachquestions around it like, "Why?" which would be curiosity.

Vandana Puranik:

We're looking at a set of data, to your point, and it's the data that we don't see that actually matter more orwhat the data doesn't tell you that you have to look, that you have to search a little bit further into. So Idon't know if you've heard the story of Abraham Wald or it'll be Wald. It's a fantastic World War II story.He was part of a strategic group that figured out how to win the war obviously without ammunition. Itwas how to use our brains and how to be smart about it.

There were a lot of fighter planes coming back with holes in them and holes all over the fuselage. So theyknew that they needed to protect that area. So the scientists that were working on it, the data analysts, theywent to Abraham Wald as a final check and said, "This is what we're finding," but it was tough becausethey had to put on armor, but it couldn't be too heavy, otherwise it would slow the planes down. It couldn'tbe too large, otherwise it would cover certain areas. Anyway-

Tim Jordan:

I think I know the end of this. So basically, what they did was figured out that the planes that returnedwith holes in them showed where it didn't matter if there was a hole.

Vandana Puranik:

That's right.

Tim Jordan:

[inaudible 00:27:28]

Vandana Puranik:

It's the planes that didn't return, and that was an Abraham Wald thing. He was the one that's credited forthat. So it's sometimes we don't see everything. It's sometimes it's the stuff that you don't see as well.

Tim Jordan:

Principle number three I know is going to be tough because it includes the word humility, and asentrepreneurs and business folks, that's a tough word, but you have a little bit different spin or differentcontext on it.

Vandana Puranik:

So I call it intellectual humility, and this is really where collaboration happens. It's a very courageousstep. I have to tell you, I come from a family of surgeons. I wanted to be a lounge singer, but that's besidethe point. In my case, you have 10 very, very strong, very successful, very knowledgeable, veryintellectual specialists working on my case at a time. The humility I saw there was incredible. So anybodythat came up with a suggestion, it's like, "Oh, this guy from Singapore had a suggestion," and one of thelocal surgeons would say, "Tell me more about that. Why'd you guys do it that way?" It's like, "Well,because it just seemed to work better." So they looked into that for me as an example or they had someonesay that, "Why don't you try it this way? Because based on the physics of how this is working, you needto change the position and that worked," but you become so much smarter with intellectual humility. It'sastonishing.

So I'm really big on this whole collaboration thing and cross-pollination thing, which I talk a lot about. Iwould really want us to be living more in that space if we could, but it's when you're the highest in yourfield and you think you know it all, that's like the Dunning-Kruger effect, which states that, "You knowwhat? I know way more, but you really don't." You don't want to be those people. Don't assume you knowthat because you just don't. So intellectual humility is a big one for me, and I do believe that's the one.Well, all of these will help sculpt the future.

Tim Jordan:

So all of these principles are fairly strategic, high level, things that if all we did was took those out of thisepisode and then research those more and focused on those things, we would be in a lot better shape, butcan you talk a little bit more tactically about how we might implement some of this stuff?

Vandana Puranik:

For me, the key things is that ... We talked about one of them already, taking note of what the data doesn'tdisplay. We talked about making sure you really know what the problem is. So for example, ask thequestions to yourself. There's a million questions you can ask to figure out what the problem is, what thereal problem is, and most often it's not what you think it is. So asking those questions and getting a list ofthose questions prepared in advance, asking people for their input, getting a multi-discipline collaborationgoing where you can actually brainstorm, and there's people with very different experiences that can cometo the table. It's a completely different experience.

So if you're trying to solve a visually creative problem, get a chef in there because tell me they don't thinkabout visuals, but they're not traditional. There's also the side where you want to be completely focused.So visualizing versus being completely focused are two very different things. I don't know if people knowto draw that distinction. So if you think of like the Peregrine Falcon, that thing swoops down at such arate to catch its prey and nothing else matters, like being so focused that you're going there, but it's not tosay that it visualizes what's going to happen. It just goes for what they see. So that's the distinctionbetween the two.

If you look at Michael Phelps, he's doing all these exercises to visualize that he's going to win these racesand he does. So I really want us to become better thinkers. I want us to be better and swifter decisionmakers. I really do believe that the world would be in a different place if we were more like that. Theother really important thing is I want us to stimulate our future generations to be like that. Sometimes weoverlook that part of it, but-

Tim Jordan:

There's a whole other conversation to be had about generational thinking, and especially here in theWestern world coming out of World War II. We could probably talk for two hours about the greatestgeneration and maybe how our thinking process isn't optimized as well as it could be, so changing that,but like I said, topic for another day.

So I know we're about out of time. You've given us a lot to think about. Hey, congrats for being here. It'skind of-

Vandana Puranik:

It's good to be alive.

Tim Jordan:

It shocks me that only a few weeks ago you were in the midst of a near-death experience and you're ableto come on. For those of you that are listening, I'm sure we have edited it out by now, but she's stillcoughing a little bit and not 100% respiratory wise, but she was insistent on being on this episode. Shereally wanted to share this stuff. I'm appreciative, Vandana, that you're here in both sets, here on this earthbut also here on the episode. So thank you so much for making the time to share this with us.

Vandana Puranik:

Thank you. I appreciate it and I'm delighted.

Tim Jordan:

Now, what do you have coming up next? I know you've got some big stuff on the way.

Vandana Puranik:

So I just did a TEDx, which was that was hard. It was three days after I got out of the hospital, so that wasreally hard just from a breathing standpoint. Then my next goal is to finish my book. The book is calledMight, M-I-G-H-T, and it has a double entendre, might as in power and might as in possibility, so thepower to solve the impossible or how might we solve this. Where do you go when nothing seems to workor you've tried, you don't even know where to begin? So it's all about that idea and how to solve toughproblems and where to get started. So that book hopefully will launch in May.

Then I'm speaking a lot, but my favorite interaction is when I do get the chance to do one-on-ones withpeople. I am building a group that is going to be a collaborative community, and I work primarily withoutliers. So these are people who think differently. They're not boisterous, they're just curious and they'recreative, and they know that there's something more that they can do and something more that canbecome of the situation that we're in. They declare independence from the status quo. They do want tosculpt their future. They do want to make choices and be the driver of those choices. So they'reprogressive. So those are the people that I'm going to work with.

I said to you earlier, I'm actually building this as a posse of bad bitches doing great work. So I love that.I'm so excited about it. A lot of the people that I work with are women and women entrepreneurs, but it'sdelightful. Then there's other plans from there, but we'll see how we'll these pan out first.

Tim Jordan:

Well, thanks so much everybody for listening. I know that we've covered a lot of ground and may haveleft you with more questions than answers, but definitely follow Vandana. Grab her book and get some ofthose answers or shoot her a message on LinkedIn. I'm sure she would be happy to respond. Now, I justcommitted for her to answer a thousand people messaging her. For those of you that appreciated, likedany of the content in this episode, make sure to leave us a review on whatever platform you're listeningon. Make sure to subscribe on all the platforms on YouTube. We're on all the social media platforms, andof course, we're on the major podcast platforms, iTunes, Spotify, and like the 90 others out there. Makesure to give us a rating as well so people can find this. Vandana, thanks again for being on here and thankall of you for listening to the end and we'll see you on the next episode.